Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Suspension, chassis tuning, brakes, alignment
User avatar
Oversquare
Stage 2
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:31 am
Car(s): 95 Miata
Car(s): '10 CX-7 Touring
Car(s): '00 Exploder
Location: Napa Valley, CA
Contact:

Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Oversquare » Thu Apr 10, 2008 9:24 pm

First, the official boiling points from the manufacturers' data sheets...

Fluid - Dry Boiling Point F/C
ATE Super Blue = 536/280
Motul 5.1 = 518/270
Castrol LMA = 509/265

Fluid - Wet Boiling Point F/C
ATE Super Blue = 388/198
Motul 5.1 = 365/185
Castrol LMA = 311/155

Fluid = Price per oz
ATE Super Blue = $0.32
Motul 5.1 = $0.47
Castrol LMA = $0.33


Notes:

Obviously the ATE Super Blue is the clear winner here.
The Castrol LMA is the only one that mentions anything about resisting moisture.
The Motul 5.1 is the only one that says it meets DOT 5.1 specs.
Motul 5.1 lists the boiling temps in "High boiling point" while the others are listed as "Minimum boiling point." Bad translation? or a different measurement?
ATE makes "Type 200" with the same boiling points as "Super Blue" but with moisture resistance. Looks like a good one to try.
Price per oz was figured using prices listed for 1 std container (no tax or shipping), converted to ounces, then divided into price for one container.
Online retailers list different boiling points than the manufacturers' web sites. My numbers are pulled from the manufacturers.
There are better fluids out there but they cost over $1/oz


References:
ATE: http://www.ate-na.com/generator/www/us/ ... fo_us.html"
Motul: http://www.motul.co.jp/eg/product_line_ ... ers03.html"
Castrol: http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_in ... eFluid.pdf"
thesnowboarder
Stage 3
Posts: 2266
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:38 am
Car(s): 1999 F-250 Super Duty
Car(s): 1990 turbo miata

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby thesnowboarder » Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:24 pm

Im a bit confused on how the fluid can be "wet" or "dry"
http://www.cahillfilms.com/blog
Big Lan wrote:The TV show Friends sucks. Free porn is great. Virus-free free porn is awesome. Your woman pointing out porn is win.
User avatar
LastManStanding
Stage 3
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:30 am
Car(s): Boat(s)
Car(s): Torch(es)
Car(s): Egg(s)
Location: Location: Location

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby LastManStanding » Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:07 am

Probably whether or not it's absorbed moisture.
Lunch Control - in which you hold down the brake, floor the gas, then the revs drop to 1k, clutch engages and it takes you to a restaurant you've never been to before
"Look at that fat girl; is she wearing a flag? It looks like she sowed two flags together and decided to wear them."
User avatar
loanpro
Stage 3
Posts: 1987
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:35 pm
Car(s): 04 Impreza Sti
Car(s): 05 Nissan Titan
Car(s): 92 MBZ 400E
Location: Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby loanpro » Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:09 am

Irvin Sevilla, Finally employed since 11/1/12, Lost it again, 4/14/14
User avatar
Oversquare
Stage 2
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:31 am
Car(s): 95 Miata
Car(s): '10 CX-7 Touring
Car(s): '00 Exploder
Location: Napa Valley, CA
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Oversquare » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:10 am

great link discussing wet and dry boiling points. I've copy/pasted the highlights here:

WET BOILING POINT
The minimum temperatures that brake fluids will begin to boil when the brake system contains 3% water by volume of the system.

DRY BOILING POINT
The temperatures that brake fluid will boil with no water present in the system.

MOISTURE IN THE BRAKE SYSTEM
Water/moisture can be found in nearly all brake systems. Moisture enters the brake system in several ways. One of the more common ways is from using old or pre-opened fluid. Keep in mind, that brake fluid draws in moisture from the surrounding air. Tightly sealing brake fluid bottles and not storing them for long periods of time will help keep moisture out. When changing or bleeding brake fluid always replace master cylinder caps as soon as possible to prevent moisture from entering into the master cylinder. Condensation, (small moisture droplets) can form in lines and calipers. As caliper and line temperatures heat up and then cool repeatedly, condensation occurs, leaving behind an increase in moisture/water. Over time the moisture becomes trapped in the internal sections of calipers, lines, master cylinders, etc. When this water reaches 212º F the water turns to steam. Many times air in the brake system is a result of water that has turned to steam. The build up of steam will create air pressure in the system, sometimes to the point that enough pressure is created to push caliper pistons into the brake pad. This will create brake drag as the rotor and pads make contact and can also create more heat in the system. Diffusion is another way in that water/moisture may enter the system.

Diffusion occurs when over time moisture enters through rubber brake hoses. The use of hoses made from EPDM materials (Ethlene-Propylene-Diene-Materials) will reduce the amount of diffusion OR use steel braided brake hose with a non-rubber sleeve (usually Teflon) to greatly reduce the diffusion process.

THINGS TO REMEMBER
Brake fluids dry boiling point is more important then wet boiling point when used in a racing brake system.
Passenger cars very rarely will undergo a brake fluid change making the wet boiling point more important.
Racing brake system fluid is changed often and a system with fresh fluid will most likely not contain water.
Because of this, racers should be concerned with the dry boiling point.
Racing fluid exceeds DOT 3, 4, and 5.1 dry boiling point specifications.
Never use silicone based fluids in racing brake systems.
Using racing brake fluid will increase performance of the braking system.
Never reuse fluid. º Never mix types or brands of brake fluid.
Use smaller fluid containers that can be used quicker.
If fluid remains in container be sure to tightly seal and do not store for long periods of time.
Purge system (complete drain) and replace fluid often.
Immediately replace master cylinder reservoir cap following any maintenance.
User avatar
Oversquare
Stage 2
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:31 am
Car(s): 95 Miata
Car(s): '10 CX-7 Touring
Car(s): '00 Exploder
Location: Napa Valley, CA
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Oversquare » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:22 am

My opinion is that you should judge a fluid by its "wet" boiling point. These are the real-world numbers that most of us will see since our cars are driven on the street, and we don't change our brake fluid every weekend.

Typically, the higher the boiling point, the more aggressively the fluid will absorb moisture through the system. The moisture levels can exceed 3% in a system; that is just the standard for measurement. Many racing fluids do not function competitively at the 3% moisture level.

The Castrol LMA comes in small, 12 oz bottles that are PERFECT for a complete flush of a brake system. I have yet to find ATE Super Blue or ATE Type 200 in something smaller than a 1 liter container. If someone finds 500mL bottles of ATE, please let me know ASAP.

I am surprised I have had such success using Castrol LMA, since the numbers above are not that competitive. Maybe it's because I flush my braking system once a month. Maybe it's because I use a fresh container each time. Maybe it's because Castrol LMA attracts less moisture than the other brands (according to their web site). Maybe it's because I'm weak on the brakes and I'm just slow.

-B
User avatar
Ken P
Stage 4+
Posts: 10051
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:14 pm
Car(s): 2014 NC GT
Car(s): 2013 Fiat 500 Abarth
Location: Jungles of Antartica

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Ken P » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:07 am

^^ psshhh, whatever. :D
Member of the Brake Fade Society.

Keep up with RetroModern's latest products
Instagram: @retromodernusa
User avatar
LastManStanding
Stage 3
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:30 am
Car(s): Boat(s)
Car(s): Torch(es)
Car(s): Egg(s)
Location: Location: Location

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby LastManStanding » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:55 am

Oversquare wrote:I am surprised I have had such success using Castrol LMA, since the numbers above are not that competitive. Maybe it's because I flush my braking system once a month. Maybe it's because I use a fresh container each time. Maybe it's because Castrol LMA attracts less moisture than the other brands (according to their web site). Maybe it's because I'm weak on the brakes and I'm just slow.

I wouldn't say the numbers aren't competitive. The difference between the best and the worst on that list is only 5%, which is negligible.

That and you seem pretty anal about keeping your system clean :P
Lunch Control - in which you hold down the brake, floor the gas, then the revs drop to 1k, clutch engages and it takes you to a restaurant you've never been to before
"Look at that fat girl; is she wearing a flag? It looks like she sowed two flags together and decided to wear them."
User avatar
loanpro
Stage 3
Posts: 1987
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:35 pm
Car(s): 04 Impreza Sti
Car(s): 05 Nissan Titan
Car(s): 92 MBZ 400E
Location: Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby loanpro » Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:23 pm

"Weak on the brakes?" Then you should be faster imo! :nutkick:
Irvin Sevilla, Finally employed since 11/1/12, Lost it again, 4/14/14
Ian McCloghrie
Stage 2
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:50 pm
Car(s): 99 FM2R
Car(s): 16 Nogaro Blue S6
Car(s): 02 Silverado 2500HD
Car(s): 93 RX-7
Location: Santa Clara, CA

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Ian McCloghrie » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:58 pm

Oversquare wrote:There are better fluids out there but they cost over $1/oz


I don't use anything but Motul RBF 600, dry/wet boiling points are 594/421. Yes, it's $1.06/oz, but realistically that's only an extra five to ten bucks when you're flushing a Miata brake system.

--Ian
'99 Emerald Mica FM2
'16 Nogaro Blue Audi S6
'02 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Duramax
'93 RX-7 "FD"
Image
User avatar
thepass
Stage 2
Posts: 411
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:29 am
Car(s): 90' Miata
Car(s): 00' SV650
Location: Monterey bay

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby thepass » Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:23 am

ATE Blue in my car. Haven't had a reason to not like it yet.
Listen to your car, not the radio.
User avatar
Caoboy
Stage 2
Posts: 478
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 8:07 pm
Car(s): 1992 NA
Location: santa clara
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Caoboy » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:32 am

edit: i need to learn how to read
User avatar
NaSeksi
Stage 2
Posts: 786
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:59 pm
Car(s): 1990 Mazda Miata
Location: Stockton, CA
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby NaSeksi » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:40 am

where do you guys get ate super blue, and do i need steel brake lines to use them? i'm still using honda dot3 and i change the fluid every other oil change.
User avatar
the token girl
Moderator
Posts: 3352
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 2:34 pm
Car(s): 1999 NB, black/tan
Car(s): 2001 NB, black/tan
Car(s): 2004 MSM, red/black
Location: Bay Area, bitches!
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby the token girl » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:58 pm

Ian McCloghrie wrote:
Oversquare wrote:There are better fluids out there but they cost over $1/oz


I don't use anything but Motul RBF 600, dry/wet boiling points are 594/421. Yes, it's $1.06/oz, but realistically that's only an extra five to ten bucks when you're flushing a Miata brake system.

--Ian


Some things are worth springing for, especially if the final cost difference is relatively minimal. I think safety enhancements should all fall in this category. Thanks for all the information in this thread, guys! :)
User avatar
Ski_Lover
Stage 3
Posts: 1083
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:44 pm
Car(s): 90 DP Miata, 1.8L
Car(s): 04 Prius
Car(s): 06 Tundra
Location: Campbell

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Ski_Lover » Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:48 pm

the_token_girl wrote:
Ian McCloghrie wrote:
Oversquare wrote:There are better fluids out there but they cost over $1/oz


I don't use anything but Motul RBF 600, dry/wet boiling points are 594/421. Yes, it's $1.06/oz, but realistically that's only an extra five to ten bucks when you're flushing a Miata brake system.

--Ian


Some things are worth springing for, especially if the final cost difference is relatively minimal. I think safety enhancements should all fall in this category. Thanks for all the information in this thread, guys! :)


I've always used Motul RBF 600
Craig Northcutt

D-Prepared '90 Miata (TC Design Cage & Prep, Rebello built '00 1.8L NA, Ankeny Racing Custom Penske shocks, OSG superlock Diff, 949 15x10 6UL's, Hoosier Tires, 1924 lbs w/50# Rear Ballast)

Image
User avatar
Savington
Stage 2
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:15 pm
Location: Mtn. View | San Luis Obispo, CA
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Savington » Thu May 29, 2008 6:49 pm

I have ATE, probably going to RBF600 on my next flush (whenever that is :rolleyes: )
Trackspeed Engineering
High-Performance and Road Race Miata Specialists
Racing engines, 949Racing 6UL wheels, suspension, brakes, and more!
Sunnyvale, CA | 650-701-RACE
User avatar
Ken P
Stage 4+
Posts: 10051
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:14 pm
Car(s): 2014 NC GT
Car(s): 2013 Fiat 500 Abarth
Location: Jungles of Antartica

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Ken P » Thu May 29, 2008 7:16 pm

im currently running RBF600. i found a few bottles from back in my motorcycling days and its worked out well.
Image
Member of the Brake Fade Society.

Keep up with RetroModern's latest products
Instagram: @retromodernusa
User avatar
loanpro
Stage 3
Posts: 1987
Joined: Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:35 pm
Car(s): 04 Impreza Sti
Car(s): 05 Nissan Titan
Car(s): 92 MBZ 400E
Location: Bay Area
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby loanpro » Thu May 29, 2008 7:48 pm

Savington wrote:I have ATE, probably going to RBF600 on my next flush (whenever that is :rolleyes: )



I need to flush mine too and probably do the braided lines at the same time...with the help of Jojo, of course ;)
Irvin Sevilla, Finally employed since 11/1/12, Lost it again, 4/14/14
User avatar
2cam16
Stage 4
Posts: 4022
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:43 pm
Car(s): '01 Subaru Fozzy
Car(s): Specialized HR Disc
Car(s): '82 Shogun Sport300
Location: San Mateo County

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby 2cam16 » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:21 pm

Wow, missed this thread.
I've always used ATE blue but never tried Motul.
Rob
User avatar
rennkafer
Stage 4
Posts: 3864
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:57 pm
Car(s): 97 STO Miata
Car(s): '67 IH Travelall
Car(s): '93 Audi S4

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby rennkafer » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:04 pm

The only thing we use at work (on vintage F1 and 950hp CanAm cars to 100hp Formula Juniors) is RBF600...
Bill J
1997 Miata STO, 550/350 FCM adjustables, 15x9 6UL, 225/45-15 RS3's, 6spd, turbo in progress...
1967 International Travelall
Image
User avatar
red5racing
Stage 3
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:15 pm
Car(s): 94R, 91A, 92 Sunburst,
Car(s): 95R, 91A Smurf
Car(s): Trek 5900
Location: LA

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby red5racing » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:55 pm

I need to flush my brakes. Where can I buy RBF600?

Craig
94R: no ABS, no PS, no AC, no OBDII, no TCS, no DSC, no ASC, no CC, no PDL, no PW. Just 225/50 Hoosier A6's

Image
User avatar
Ken P
Stage 4+
Posts: 10051
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:14 pm
Car(s): 2014 NC GT
Car(s): 2013 Fiat 500 Abarth
Location: Jungles of Antartica

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Ken P » Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:05 pm

cyclegear has them if you cant find it anywhere else.
Member of the Brake Fade Society.

Keep up with RetroModern's latest products
Instagram: @retromodernusa
Ian McCloghrie
Stage 2
Posts: 286
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:50 pm
Car(s): 99 FM2R
Car(s): 16 Nogaro Blue S6
Car(s): 02 Silverado 2500HD
Car(s): 93 RX-7
Location: Santa Clara, CA

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Ian McCloghrie » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:21 am

Mr Ken wrote:cyclegear has them if you cant find it anywhere else.


Motorcycle stores are a good choice. Road Rider in south san jose has it, as does the one at Camdem and Union (GP Sports? Something like that).

--Ian
'99 Emerald Mica FM2
'16 Nogaro Blue Audi S6
'02 Chevy Silverado 2500HD Duramax
'93 RX-7 "FD"
Image
Steve-90
Stage 2
Posts: 271
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:50 pm
Car(s): 91 miata - gone
Car(s): 14 Audi A4
Car(s): 10 Audi A3
Location: Aptos CA
Contact:

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby Steve-90 » Wed May 20, 2009 6:13 am

After having repeated issues with ATE super blue in my Audis that I use to track, I went to Motul RBF600 and haven't turned back. I have about 125 track days so far. I have yet to have any issues with brake fade or spongy petal with RBF600. I get mine at GT Motorsports at the corner of Union and Camden in San Jose.
Image
old race car - gone
Image
old track car and occasional daily driver - gone

Steve-90
User avatar
owenxguo
Stage 1
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:19 am
Car(s): S2000 AP1
Car(s): Miata NB
Car(s): E46 M3
Location: San Mateo

Re: Brake Fluid info for popular track day brake fluids

Postby owenxguo » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:37 am

I am currently running on Motul 600, firmer padel feeling than super blue, performance wise both are pretty similar.
Image

Return to “Handling”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest