Heel-Toe

Driving techniques on or off a track
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby SRN DI G SAO » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:22 pm

While I do agree with TTG, Everytime someone throws out the "you have to be smooth to be fast" card I have to respectfully throw out Jack Mardikian's record run sans heel toe or rev match. I have much respect for driving smoothly at the limit and I know well the benefits it has, but driving smoothly is not the end-all to getting around fast./ rant

Personally I think Kevin's fast blip is the better way to heel toe, as it gives you a better feel of when to drop, how much engine braking you've used, and the quick blip is always on target when performed correctly. The only catch is timing, something that takes a while to get used to. Sometimes blipping too early causes loss of effective e-braking, or takes you too high into the rev range that it upsets the car.
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby Popstoy » Sat Sep 05, 2009 3:42 pm

It is truely wonderful, and I'm eternally greatful, to be in the presence of those who are wise beyond their years. Maybe, I shouldn't claim ignorance, but stupidity instead, after all my years of racing, including some very expensive driving schools, I still don't know squat. Bob
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby the token girl » Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:07 am

TehOutsyder wrote:
the token girl wrote:Kevin, maybe I didn't explain the degree to which they do it. I've seen someone try to downshift in my car when they were at about 2200 RPM, so in the new gear, they would probably have only ended up at 2800-3000 or so (I forget what gears they were, but it shouldn't make too much difference). Instead of blipping GENTLY and nudging the RPMs up, he planted his foot on the gas firmly for nearly a second, in which time the revs climbed to somewhere over 5000 RPM. Trust me, it takes a long time when you're sitting around twiddling your thumbs waiting for revs to fall.

I would like to take this moment in time to point out that this was not me... :P

Sorry, I certainly didn't mean to imply it was anybody you guys know personally! Most of my car friends in California are on NCR in any case, and you guys already know how to drive. No, I've been trying to edumacate these New Yawkers, and I'm having only mixed success at best. I guess heel-toeing doesn't matter so much if you don't have awesome driving roads to use it on anyway.
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby Savington » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:25 am

Popstoy wrote:Just call me ignorant, cause I can't follow your logic.


Now that would just be mean. ;)

Popstoy wrote:Certainly you can't engage the final gear until you reach your final speed, or you would subject the rear tires to loss of traction, but why do that more than once?


I meant the FINAL gear - in a 6-5-4-3 situation, that would be third gear. Although less than diplomatic, DBB is right - if you punch the brakes from 140, and bring the car to 50, by the time you are ready to make your downshift into 3rd gear at around 60mph, the revs have dropped from 7000+rpm all the way down to 3400rpm or so. There's obviously much more engine braking available at 7000 than at 4000, so keeping the revs high by rowing through every gear maintains as much engine braking as possible.

Popstoy wrote: Regardless of braking time, if you were to down shift more than once, in order to use engine braking you'd need to engage the gear you're in every time you heel and toe-d down or you wouldn't be using engine braking.


I don't know whether you can completely see my clutch pedal in that video, but I do engage every single gear during multiple downshifts. Clutch in, swing my heel, blip, downshift, clutch out. Then repeat for the next gear, and the next gear.

Popstoy wrote:Perhaps if the braking bias was to your satisfaction, and I'm not saying it isn't, you might feel engine braking was of less importance.


I thought of that after I made that point. A car that has proper brake bias to aid rotation at 40 or 50mph (that is to say, WAY more than stock rear bias), such as during corner entry, becomes terribly twitchy when you punch the brakes from 140mph. The downshifts keep the rear end in line until you are ready to turn in - you can essentially vary the brake bias with the clutch and shifter. Just another tool at the driver's disposal. :)

Popstoy wrote:Andrew, please accept my opinion as well intended


As always.
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby nitewing117 » Sun Sep 06, 2009 1:51 pm

When I go from like 5th->3rd, I just put the shifter in 4th, but I sometimes dont let the clutch out when i blip the throttle. I just do it to make sure that I rev matched 3rd right. I personally feel more consistent that way because I'm used to 1 blip per gear.
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby Ken P » Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:23 am

Papa Smurf wrote:oh god, the humanity! Its "braking" douche bag, not "breaking" :lol:

hahahaa this coming from the guy who uses "your" in place of "you're" on a regular basis. ohhh the irony :D
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby Papa Smurf » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:10 am

i do not do that often. get your facts straight.
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby Ken P » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:40 am

hahaha you did in the 12th post. but i see youve edited it.
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby Papa Smurf » Thu Sep 10, 2009 10:44 am

hmm I do! Thanks for bringing it up. My grammar is failing me. I will correct it.
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby malachi_fox » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:36 pm

hmmm

just because your aren't heel-toeing doesn't mean your slower

Its just another technique but it isn't a requirement to be fast

Rally drivers barely heel and toe but left foot brake like second nature

GT drivers barely left foot brake (not talking bout F1) but they heel and toe like second nature

Any of you saw that GT vs rally drivers vid on youtube

The rally driver giles panizzi didnt heel and toe at all but still got the fastest time out of everyone that did

many ways to skin a cat I say
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby SRN DI G SAO » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:53 pm

^Search for Jack Mardikian, fastest non-heel toe driver on Button at the moment.
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Re: Heel-Toe

Postby Ski_Lover » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:17 pm

Here's an example from Boris Said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRWj248s93E

In the video above, Boris really has to reach over with his heel, not at all like what we face in our Miata. Don't really think of using your heel, but rather the side of your foot. Try to only blip the throttle with a quick roll over of your foot from the break to the gas pedal. It really depends on the pedal spacing, but you can also bend the pedals closer together on the Miata.

I only practice on the street under heavy braking. It's harder to modulate brake pressure under light load.

I pretty much do it all the time on track or AutoX, and on the street if I'm really hauling the mail.

Do it because it's fun, it's cool, and for all of those other reasons mentioned:).
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