LSx

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neofreak
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LSx

Postby neofreak » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:16 pm

Hypothetical scenario.

Which one is the most "ideal".

Criteria:
CARB legal
~>400hp
aluminum
CARB legal
"reasonably" priced let's say <$10k for everything incl install/transmission/driveshaft/ecu/whatever
CARB legal

What would the "average" installation cost be at MSRP? (assuming there is a pre made cradle for this specific chassis already)

yes I know I'm not being very specific.. I'm just in the early stages of cooking something up.
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Re: LSx

Postby Scandinavian Flick » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:38 pm

Well, the LS2 is 400hp, 400lb/ft out of the box, and they're aluminum block and heads. That's going to be your best (possibly your only) bet with your criteria. I dunno if you are going to be able to get it down to < $10K with someone else installing it though. Depends on the fab work involved, I suppose.

Btw, just throwing this out there, if you're actively looking, watch out for parts from this recently stolen car: http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=574578
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Re: LSx

Postby orion4096 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 3:48 pm

I have some experience with this considering I lived through a referee visit 1 month ago as they picked through a ls1 swap. 400 at the wheels can be had, be CARB legal, and pass smog on pretty much any of the 5.7+ lsx motors in the original chassis. Might be tough on the 5.3 truck motors, but CARB legal heads, headers, and other smoggable stuff makes it straightforward even on a 5.7. It only gets easier on the 6.0 and 6.2 to make that power. The hard parts with CARB on any of the lsx swaps are:

- Fitting smoggable headers/manifolds with stock or near stock OEM cat pipes. Platforms like the miata pretty much require moving the steering shaft or other creative ways to get the driver's side header/manifold to clear which, IMHO, isn't worth it unless you absolutely want a lsx miata and not another lsx car.
- Getting all the emissions stuff to pass. This includes secondary air pumps, EGR, the fuel regulator, charcoal canisters (which may tap fuel tank pressure) with all solenoids. This may require the fuel tank from the donor car.
- Carb legal intake/filter. Usually the stock intake piping doesn't fit, but k&n makes stuff for the original car that you can use with the sticker.

There is some mixing and matching you can do from various years to improve fitment and power, but the legality of that depends on how the referee interprets the very open-ended rules for engine swaps.

Certain model years make this easier. For example, 01-02 camaros/firebirds don't have EGR. They eventually got rid of secondary air with the LS2s (I think). Also, depending on the referee you get they may or may not look for everything. They crawled around looking at everything on my car. Measured O2 sensor distances from cats, looked under my engine covers, etc. Much more thorough than I expected. I wanted a quiet, smoggable car so it pretty much sits right now as I drove it to the referee.

<$10k might be a little tight. Figure donor swap parts (engine, harness, ecu, trans) are 4-6k. Usually 2-4k for mounting, radiator, etc. Then there will be a lot of other misc parts on top of that (diff?, driveshaft, fuel related stuff, AC?, exhaust work). That's just parts cost. I'd guess 12-15k for a reasonably well done, but complete swap. Probably closer to 15k for 400+ at the wheels and to give yourself some room for unexpected costs.

EDIT: Worth mentioning that some platforms will be cheaper:
fd - can use stock diff, zero engine bay mods, more room for intake/filter
miata - not required but you really want a 8.8 or getrag diff, some chopping in the engine bay, custom intake/filter or chopping required
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Re: LSx

Postby neofreak » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:23 pm

Thanks guys. The end goal is 100% smog legal and quiet. Pretty much a sleeper with nice wheels, so if all the stock cats/headers can be fitted that's perfectly fine.

There's so much alphabet soup here I had no idea what's what, but I'll aim for a LS2 I suppose, unless whatever the next step up doesn't cost a whole lot more. (What is the next step up?)
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Re: LSx

Postby Scandinavian Flick » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:03 pm

I would have to say that would be the LS3, which is a 6.2L. It's the C6 Corvette motor starting as of 2008. Also used in the G8 GXP and current 2010+ Camaro SS. They're probably going to be harder to find though, and the 30hp and 24lb-ft gains probably aren't going to be worth it over the LS2.

Also, apparently the L92 is all aluminum as well. I thought all the truck LS motors were iron block. That's the one they used in the 2007+ Escalade, '08-09 Hummer H2, and a few others. Not sure you can use that though for car purposes. Might be able to dress it up as an LS3 and see if you get away with it... :-P (Seriously though, don't take my word on that. Look into that more before dropping coin on an L92.)

I'll give you a heads up if I see anything come up on the GTO forum. A guy in San Jose just sold one last month...
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Re: LSx

Postby orion4096 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:22 pm

The gto t56 generally shifts better than the fbody t56 and the ls2 is a nice upgrade over the ls1, although, the older c5 corvette ls6 has the nice heads from the factory. Needless to say I could talk about this crap for hours and a lot of it is opinion mixed with some facts... I agree with Logan that a ls2/t56 takeout from a gto isn't a bad choice right now. There are a lot of variables with getting it past the referee that you have to be careful with, though. I'll spare you from another essay, but it's good to think it through upfront because it will save money/pain later on.
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Re: LSx

Postby silhouette » Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:59 pm

GM sells a factory crate LS3/7/A/whatever engine package with the express purpose of passing CARB called the "E-Rod"

http://www.chevroletperformance.com/e-r ... n=overview
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Re: LSx

Postby orion4096 » Fri Sep 27, 2013 6:48 pm

The e-rod motors are definitely another option, but they are only legal for OBD-I and older cars (95 and older according to the CARB database). Also, the manifolds and cat pipes may not fit as-is. Depends on the car. I know the LS3 e-rod doesn't fit in a FD without modding the cat pipe with most swap kits.
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Re: LSx

Postby CPTMULLER » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:14 pm

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Re: LSx

Postby neofreak » Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:45 pm

It's not going in a FD, I'd never do that. :hmm:
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Re: LSx

Postby CPTMULLER » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:46 am

neofreak wrote:It's not going in a FD, I'd never do that. :hmm:

:lol:

Article is still interesting/relavent though.
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Re: LSx

Postby orion4096 » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:59 am

Those freakin swap people are buying up all the good engines and rollers. :D It's actually pretty hard to find a reasonably priced gto t56 for sale that isn't sold with an engine. Even prices on the fbody t56s are high. The FD is actually a really good reference because the swap is pretty easy and it's well documented.
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Re: LSx

Postby gesso » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:13 am

orion4096 wrote:I have some experience with this considering I lived through a referee visit 1 month ago as they picked through a ls1 swap.


Mind if I pick your brain on this a bit at somepoint? I'm the guy who bought your old trans x-member last year. I'm hoping to start my ls1 on the stand soon to make sure all is good and then put it back in the car and try to get it BAR'd.
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Re: LSx

Postby orion4096 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:41 am

gesso wrote:
orion4096 wrote:I have some experience with this considering I lived through a referee visit 1 month ago as they picked through a ls1 swap.


Mind if I pick your brain on this a bit at somepoint? I'm the guy who bought your old trans x-member last year. I'm hoping to start my ls1 on the stand soon to make sure all is good and then put it back in the car and try to get it BAR'd.


Sure. It would be awesome if you can get a ls1 miata BAR'd. It's a lot of work.
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Re: LSx

Postby gesso » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:32 am

orion4096 wrote:
gesso wrote:
orion4096 wrote:Sure. It would be awesome if you can get a ls1 miata BAR'd. It's a lot of work.


Thanks! Emailed off board, figure I'll post back here when I have something useful to say :)

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